Curse

moriz · Apr 08, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

so you are saying, that things out of reach for 99% of the population.... are still out of reach. gee, a great big change, isn't it. we should completely scrap something a lot of people participate in, just because a few items are affected. GREAT use of resources.

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Yes, we should scrap it. Because we as players deserve a game free of RMT. That's what was promised. The promise should be kept.

Further, most of these items are not and never have been out of reach for the population. We're also talking about items that have been given away in collector's editions, magazines and the like here, and not just about items with only a few hundred copies in the game.

The RMT effects of XTH are exactly the same sort of BS we have repeatedly been assured the game will remain free of. If the devs have any integrity, then XTH must go.

moriz · Apr 08, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

you can only define it as RMT if you MUST buy additional accounts to bet the XTH. fortunately for us, and unfortunately for your argument, we don't. those who actually buys 33 accounts (and how many of them are there? one? two? three?) are the exception, not the norm. it would be foolhardy for a service which is mostly enjoyed non-abusively to be removed because of a pitifully tiny few who's loony enough to abuse it.

frankly, even if this becomes a problem (and its no where near that), anet will just implement an additional trade rule that makes it very hard to consolidate keys/items from ridiculous number of accounts, which would solve it without scrapping the system entirely.

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I didn't HAVE to buy gold back in the heyday of RMT in this game. Yet the bots were still engaging in RMT. Other players chose to buy gold online and this negatively impacted all players that did not do so. There is NO difference between that situation and this one.

If I print money every month and pass it out to everyone equally, there are no distributional implications to the resultant inflation. You're made BETTER off by XTH's removal if you have less than the average number of accounts held by players. The drops you get from playing the game normally become worth more, because the zchest is not used as often and prices on skins and mods are not driven down.

It is stupid to have a law against drinking under the age of 21 because of the pitifully few teenagers that drive drunk and kill someone. Yet we have a law because the costs to the affected parties are quite high.

The fact that you personally do not care has no impact whatsoever on whether or not this issue is a problem. The implications of XTH are quite clear and easily demonstrated mathematically.

moriz · Apr 08, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

and the fact that you personally care and crusades against a problem that isn't there has no impact whatsoever either. frankly, i have no idea how you are going to convince me that i could've generated the gold to buy my obsidian+9 elite armor sets by selling amber. without XTH, it wouldn't be possible. therefore, your claim that removing XTH will benefit me, or most of other players, is false.

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Learn to play better, noob?

I mean, that's really all I can say to the claim that it's impossible to earn 1.5 million gold in this game by just playing it. I mean, I had twice that by the end of August of 2005! If you're actually bad enough at the game that you were trying to make money by faction farming for amber...

...you should have substituted efficient money making methods for ones that fail. You've got tons of posts; ever try wandering over to the farming forum?

The simple fact remains that per unit of time invested, the normal player is better off with XTH removed. You'd make more money per unit of time invested without XTH distorting values. Two types of players benefit: the RMT-er with lots of accounts, and the sellers of exploits like champ point farming that see demand for their services increase markedly.

Again, the impact is observable in the data. If the Kuunavang price graph doesn't convince you, I don't know what else will. You can match the other price spikes with other well-known historical distortions in the marketplace. You still have not advanced a theory that explains why the price spiked. I have provided one, and the theory is consistent with what we already know.

The fact that you don't care about the impact has nothing to do with whether or not the impact exists. You're so blinded by free stuff popping into your inventory every month that you can't see how you're actually getting the shaft. It's sad.

moriz · Apr 08, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

maybe i should have said that i have no interest in making a ton of money, nor do i have interest in farming for anything. AB happens to be one of the arenas that enjoy the most, and given my preferred playing style, there's no way to generate that much money needed for the elite armors. and btw, i can run any farming build you can think of, i just don't care to do so. however, i do like those armor sets, and i would like to get them playing the game in a way that i enjoy.

(and btw, i in fact DID earn two of my 11 or so elite armor sets by selling amber, each took me less than a week. yes, i'm that good)

last time i checked, AB and other forms of pvp are within the given premise of the game. in fact, it can be argued that farming for anything is not playing the game it is intended. just because you were inclined to play the game to accumulate worthless digital wealth, it doesn't mean that i have to do the same.

lastly, i have advanced my theory, with about the same amount of theorycrafted support (which is what you're relying on most of the time). you just haven't bothered to read and/or understand it, which is typical of one so bigoted.

so please, drop your superior attitudes and bigotry. you are not the vigilante crusader that you make yourself to be. you are just a loony bin trying to correct a problem that isn't even there.

wu is me · Apr 08, 2009, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

maybe i should have said that i have no interest in making a ton of money, nor do i have interest in farming for anything. AB happens to be one of the arenas that enjoy the most, and given my preferred playing style, there's no way to generate that much money needed for the elite armors. and btw, i can run any farming build you can think of, i just don't care to do so. however, i do like those armor sets, and i would like to get them playing the game in a way that i enjoy.

(and btw, i in fact DID earn two of my 11 or so elite armor sets by selling amber, each took me less than a week. yes, i'm that good)

last time i checked, AB and other forms of pvp are within the given premise of the game. in fact, it can be argued that farming for anything is not playing the game it is intended. just because you were inclined to play the game to accumulate worthless digital wealth, it doesn't mean that i have to do the same.

lastly, i have advanced my theory, with about the same amount of theorycrafted support (which is what you're relying on most of the time). you just haven't bothered to read and/or understand it, which is typical of one so bigoted.

so please, drop your superior attitudes and bigotry. you are not the vigilante crusader that you make yourself to be. you are just a loony bin trying to correct a problem that isn't even there.

Exactly.

See, what happens when the price of Zkeys plumments like you say it will? Much fewer ppl will PvP-Ie play the game the way it's intended.

What will happen when the XTH is removed?Supply of Keys goes down, price goes up, earnings from PvP go up .More ppl will play pvp, and also you can get your armor sets faster by AB'ing, since you earn more on your Balth faction.
PPL will begin to play the game 'as intended'- and PvP indeed is very appropriate for an online game...

Which acconts will benefit most from keeping the XTH? The accounts which aren;t frequently played, and don't have a lot of game time, since they have the highest proportion of their 'earnings' attributed to the XTH.

Who benefits most from it's removal? People who PLAY the game the way it's s'posed to be played!

zwei2stein · Apr 08, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Exactly.

See, what happens when the price of Zkeys plumments like you say it will? Much fewer ppl will PvP-Ie play the game the way it's intended.

What will happen when the XTH is removed?Supply of Keys goes down, price goes up, earnings from PvP go up .More ppl will play pvp, and also you can get your armor sets faster by AB'ing, since you earn more on your Balth faction.
PPL will begin to play the game 'as intended'- and PvP indeed is very appropriate for an online game...

Which acconts will benefit most from keeping the XTH? The accounts which aren;t frequently played, and don't have a lot of game time, since they have the highest proportion of their 'earnings' attributed to the XTH.

Who benefits most from it's removal? People who PLAY the game the way it's s'posed to be played!

If you play PvP to farm for platinum (!!!), are you really playing game the way it was "intended"? You could as well be just slaughtering raptors if you care about cash and not "fun".

In fact, if PvP gets filled with people who play to profit, well, that pretty bad. /rolling, leeching, syncing. But guess they would be playing game as intended.

Or would not bother at all ... with raptors around and the fact that visions of farming crystalines did not get people to pvp either.

Lourens · Apr 08, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

If you play PvP to farm for platinum (!!!), are you really playing game the way it was "intended"? You could as well be just slaughtering raptors if you care about cash and not "fun".

In fact, if PvP gets filled with people who play to profit, well, that pretty bad. /rolling, leeching, syncing. But guess they would be playing game as intended.

Or would not bother at all ... with raptors around and the fact that visions of farming crystalines did not get people to pvp either.

Exactly

I play for fun , and if I feel like farming maybe some farm in the area need some help and I can earn some real cash in the progress lol

makes me feel a lot better about myself then farming in a virtual world.

wu is me · Apr 08, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

If you play PvP to farm for platinum (!!!), are you really playing game the way it was "intended"? You could as well be just slaughtering raptors if you care about cash and not "fun".

In fact, if PvP gets filled with people who play to profit, well, that pretty bad. /rolling, leeching, syncing. But guess they would be playing game as intended.

Or would not bother at all ... with raptors around and the fact that visions of farming crystalines did not get people to pvp either.

OH Come ON!

Why do ppl bet on soccer games?
Do you seriously think Poker would be a Fun game without money involved?

Rewards make anything competitive(and that eliminates farming as a related activity) more enjoyable.

Besides, Regardless of whether or not PvP'ing should be something that offers in game rewards, wouldn't you say that distributing in game wealth based on PvP performance and participation a better way of disributing in game wealth based on the number of accounts purchased?

Shasgaliel · Apr 08, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Besides, Regardless of whether or not PvP'ing should be something that offers in game rewards, wouldn't you say that distributing in game wealth based on PvP performance and participation a better way of disributing in game wealth based on the number of accounts purchased?

If were ANET then more accounts=more money for me. Who cares about pvp performance? This game was made to generate profit and not for charity purposes. I would try to make XTH predictions even more profiting so that more and more people will be buying accounts. That is the way to profit on an old game...

Gli · Apr 08, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

But since you're not ANet, perhaps you should just stick with your own expectations of the game?

Shasgaliel · Apr 08, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But since you're not ANet, perhaps you should just stick with your own expectations of the game?

Maybe my expectations match with the ones of them?

I really think that the whole topic is ridiculous if you look at it from the broader perspective. I will repeat. Removing XTH would be like shooting in ones own leg since it is in my opinion the main source of income for the company which maintains the game...

lewis91 · Apr 08, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

The way i see it, Zaishen Rank is impossible unless you've got 20000 ectos floating around that you want to turn into Zkeys then creme brulees. So XTH adds keys into the game, and brings down the overall price, hell after months theyre still at 4k...I wouldn't dream of maxing untill they reach at least 2k/ea, because still thats overall 40000k which, i don't have.

go cubs · Apr 08, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

If were ANET then more accounts=more money for me. Who cares about pvp performance? This game was made to generate profit and not for charity purposes. I would try to make XTH predictions even more profiting so that more and more people will be buying accounts. That is the way to profit on an old game...

More rewarding=less accounts.....The way it is is good for anet....If they make it more rewarding.....avg of lets say 1000 trp per account max 2500 then instead of 10 accounts getting 200 keys 10 accounts would get 2000 keys which would make people buy less accounts which means less cash for anet

Bof · Apr 08, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

This game will be long gone by the take ZKeys hit 2k. 16 months of XTH 1k price drop...
Price drops are good.... why do some say its bad?

Didnt we see that PvP was not meant to make money? Yet Martin being a PvP only player made 3million in the first 4 months of the game. Im guessing the 3million is just a bonus for him since its all about beating the other player. Yet he is the one QQing about the prices of stuff.

You show me a game where RMT doesnt occur...

1. 20 Minis go in Hall of Monuments doesnt matter what they are. If they give a bonus for better mini pets then right away in GW2 power traders have an advantage over everyone.

2. Q7 and Q8s cant go into the Hall of Monuments, so why not wait until they day before the release of GW2 to buy? Horde your ZKeys that you get from XTH and buy what your QQing about at the end.

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

@ shasgaliel: The point is that if they'll do it once, they'll do it again. Serious players (the ones that buy multiple accounts, character slots, and all expansions) will recognize what is up and substitute to games that police RMT rather than actively sell it.

The serious player is far more profitable, because they pay full price and buy directly. There are costs associated with shipping games, so ANet collects far less than $10 on these XMT accounts. Ticking off players that will spend $250 in the in-game store (100% profit) to sell accounts at perhaps $3-$5 net profit is just dumb.

This makes sense if ANet's finances are on life support, and they need the meager revenue stream to service debt and survive to issue GW2. It also makes sense if they oversold the game to retailers and have to agree to dump copies at or below cost to avoid costly returns. Otherwise, this strategy of selling games is suicide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

(and btw, i in fact DID earn two of my 11 or so elite armor sets by selling amber, each took me less than a week. yes, i'm that good)

1) "Good" and "AB" do not belong in the same sentence. I have played all the formats except HB extensively. I played my share of AB while holding Cavalon during 2006. If it's a step above RA, it is not a large one.
2) If you enjoy doing it, all well and good. This does not alter the fact that it is an inefficient money-making mechanism (compared to alternatives available in PvE AND PvP). You would have made far more money succeeding in HA or GvG for the same amount of time, because the rewards are better. Ditto for efficient PvE play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

last time i checked, AB and other forms of pvp are within the given premise of the game. in fact, it can be argued that farming for anything is not playing the game it is intended. just because you were inclined to play the game to accumulate worthless digital wealth, it doesn't mean that i have to do the same.

There's this thing called the theory of value. People reveal their preferences over items through their purchasing behavior; they pay more for stuff they value more highly, and scarcity matters. It follows logically that if you want to accumulate wealth, you have to engage in activities that other people value. Generating amber isn't one of them. You want virtual wealth, you substitute to activities that produce outputs other players want.

You choose between "use my time the way I want" and "make lots of money using my time the way other people want". Either's valid, but don't whine to me about how you can't make money if you choose the former course of action. That's the price you pay, unless you're lucky enough to enjoy doing something other people value highly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

lastly, i have advanced my theory, with about the same amount of theorycrafted support (which is what you're relying on most of the time). you just haven't bothered to read and/or understand it, which is typical of one so bigoted.

It's not that I don't understand it. It's that it isn't logically consistent. I can prove anything with a logically inconsistent theory. Up is down, white is black, whatever. Your explanation works for an N of 1: you. If all players shared your preferences over in-game activities, all players would benefit from XTH. But they don't. You have implicitly made an invalid assumption. When the false assumption is revealed, your chain of reasoning falls apart.

PvE players get shafted because XTH takes with one hand (reducing value of drops) while giving with the other, yet raising prices on other goods. Players that want to dedicate minis (and there's a LOT of them) lose because the price of the minis skyrockets. HA, HB and GvG players lose because the value of their zkeys gets diluted.

The big winners are: people already possessing the rare miniatures (mostly resellers), people like you that choose to spend lots of time engaging in inefficient in-game economic activity, and people that don't play a lot but value in-game cash sufficiently to play XTH.

It should be fairly apparent that the former set is larger than the latter. The truly casual player isn't going to remember to make XTH predictions, and the other two sets of winners are small.

As far as your theorycraft argument: I am merely extending economic theory to what happens in the game, and supporting these arguments with data where possible. You maintain, wrongly, that it is impossible to extend economic theory to Guild Wars. You have given no satisfactory proof as to why. The game fits the standard conditions for an economy: goods exist, goods are scarce, and exchanges are possible. Economic theory therefore applies. Further, some macroeconomic theory applies because there are items in this game that players use as markers for value: the effective definition of a currency.

Your assertions are just wrong. This results from your inaccurate understanding of what an economy is and how it works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so please, drop your superior attitudes and bigotry. you are not the vigilante crusader that you make yourself to be. you are just a loony bin trying to correct a problem that isn't even there.

The irony just kills me.

moriz · Apr 08, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

and yet again, you wrongly assume that AB is all i play. i can play gvg, in fact, i'm likely to be far better at it than you are. i've also bought a few elite armor sets from profits generated while playing ATs last summer.

your real-world analogy still does not work, simply because real-world economies also factor in such things as debt and credit. GW does not have those things in place, so only a tiny subset of real-life economic law applies. unfortunately for you, all the examples you've drawn are outside of that subset.

the fact remains, is that you cannot explain how taking away XTH will benefit me. you've resorted to personal attacks because your theory has more holes that swiss cheese, and witty oneliners in place of actual reasonable argument. there are far more players like me than you, those who plays casually and don't see the accumulation of ingame pixels as an advantage. you are sadly outnumbered.

btw, you can only count the XTH as RMT if you have to buy ANOTHER account to just play it. after all, RMT is the use of real money to buy ingame stuff. me having an account allows me to play the XTH; i don't have to put forward more money to play it.

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and yet again, you wrongly assume that AB is all i play. i can play gvg, in fact, i'm likely to be far better at it than you are. i've also bought a few elite armor sets from profits generated while playing ATs last summer.

My point is: if you're a solid GvGer, you're losing here. The cash value of your keys is getting diluted faster than you're getting replacement keys.

You're likely to be far better at it since I quit serious GvG in early 2006, with the exception of a midline run in the summer of '07. Best I can claim is some wins vs. top 20, but a relatively poor overall record. Won some dailys, big whoop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

your real-world analogy still does not work, simply because real-world economies also factor in such things as debt and credit.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not economic theory applies. You can apply economic theory to a two good, two player, one period economy. You don't need credit and debt to use theory here. If you print more currency, you devalue the currency. It's a ridiculously easy proof.

Credit and debt have nothing to do with it. There was macroeconomic theory before Friedman. I'm not building on his logic because credit and debt do not exist in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the fact remains, is that you cannot explain how taking away XTH will benefit me.

Just did. The keys you get from regular play would be worth far more if they were scarcer. The guys that wanted r12 would have paid a LOT more to get it if they could expect to remain the only ones with r12 for some time to come. Scarcer shinies are worth more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

there are far more players like me than you, those who plays casually and don't see the accumulation of ingame pixels as an advantage. you are sadly outnumbered.

You don't have to see the accumulation of in-game pixels as an advantage. It's simply a question of the amount of goodies you get per unit of time invested. If you GvG seriously, and keys were five to ten times rarer than they are now...you'd be a lot richer from your GvG play than you are under present market conditions.

You just can't observe the counterfactual, because XTH and the title track went in at the same time. But we can observe the effects in other markets and infer what would have happened in the counterfactual.

EDIT: *sigh* Botters sold gold to other players. I didn't buy it. It was still RMT despite the fact that I chose not to participate.

Whether or not you buy extra accounts to engage in RMT has nothing to do with whether or not RMT is going on. QED.